Comments for Reuse The Base NAS Willow Grove http://reusethebase.com Voice Your Opinions Concerns Ideas Fri, 05 Aug 2011 01:21:26 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.2.1 Comment on Solar Power at the base no airplains by Sqrt99 http://reusethebase.com/?p=89#comment-572 Sqrt99 Fri, 05 Aug 2011 01:21:26 +0000 http://reusethebase.com/?p=89#comment-572 The runway at NAS JRB Wilow grove is exactly 8000 ft, the parallel taxiway is 8001 ft. You can land ( and they have) just about anything there. Ive watched C5 Galaxies do touch and goes up close and personal on several occasions. The runway itself was resurfaced about 7 years ago. However all this is a moot point as the township hlra has scrapped any plans for an airport at this time. The runway at NAS JRB Wilow grove is exactly 8000 ft, the parallel taxiway is 8001 ft. You can land ( and they have) just about anything there. Ive watched C5 Galaxies do touch and goes up close and personal on several occasions. The runway itself was resurfaced about 7 years ago. However all this is a moot point as the township hlra has scrapped any plans for an airport at this time.

]]> Comment on For those that would like to have input on what reuse plan takes place at the Navy Base by Sqrt99 http://reusethebase.com/?p=75#comment-537 Sqrt99 Thu, 28 Jul 2011 21:54:46 +0000 http://reusethebase.com/?p=75#comment-537 Reusing military bases are a costly business and NASJRB WG is no exception. EVERY base in the US has some type of Superfund site somewhere on base. For years bases disposed of oil, contaminated fuel, other waste either intentionally or unintentionally burying it in unused parts of the base. This is a cold hard fact. I worked at the base for a few years and I can tell you none of the buildings meet todays code, are in varying states of decay and are loaded with asbestos. The roads are too narrow by todays standards, often barely 8ft wide. Most of the buildings are all fed by a central steam generating plant for heat. The runway alone is 8000 ft long by 200ft wide. the parallel taxiway next to it is a foot longer and 75ft wide, both are in excess of 3 ft thick with service tunnels for the runway lighting running the length. That is an insane amount of asphalt, concrete and rock to remove. And thats just the runway. All the ramps and taxiways where the airplanes parked are about 20+ acres of concreted parking lots. And this is just the airfield! I dont think the township could afford to maintain an antiquated airport or develop portions themselves. Sell this money pit while you have the chance! Reusing military bases are a costly business and NASJRB WG is no exception. EVERY base in the US has some type of Superfund site somewhere on base. For years bases disposed of oil, contaminated fuel, other waste either intentionally or unintentionally burying it in unused parts of the base. This is a cold hard fact. I worked at the base for a few years and I can tell you none of the buildings meet todays code, are in varying states of decay and are loaded with asbestos. The roads are too narrow by todays standards, often barely 8ft wide. Most of the buildings are all fed by a central steam generating plant for heat. The runway alone is 8000 ft long by 200ft wide. the parallel taxiway next to it is a foot longer and 75ft wide, both are in excess of 3 ft thick with service tunnels for the runway lighting running the length. That is an insane amount of asphalt, concrete and rock to remove. And thats just the runway. All the ramps and taxiways where the airplanes parked are about 20+ acres of concreted parking lots. And this is just the airfield! I dont think the township could afford to maintain an antiquated airport or develop portions themselves. Sell this money pit while you have the chance!

]]> Comment on Solar Power at the base no airplains by Hatboro Mike http://reusethebase.com/?p=89#comment-527 Hatboro Mike Wed, 27 Jul 2011 15:14:19 +0000 http://reusethebase.com/?p=89#comment-527 Amy: I too lived in close proximity to PNE from 1966-97, in fact very close to the flight paths on BOTH ends in two separate houses. For certain there were a few accidents, but I tend to discount that threat when I consider the Willow Grove site. My objections are based on: 1) I watched PNE grow from a very sleepy private plane operation to a much more bustling level of activity. So obviously few airports in urban areas ever remain at the same level of activity from whence they start. 2) The financial benefits so many on the airport side like to promote WILL NOT result from the same kind of sleepy, general aviation operation they foresee. Only from a much larger commercial operation will any direct significant economic activity result. Corporate/industrial development, which they also laud as an indirect economic benefit, will indubitably demand more than a "limited" aviation operation. 3) The runway at JRB-WG is over 8000 ft long. In that regard, the base can already accomodate much larger, heavier, and noisier aircraft today than PNE ever did. Perhaps the "out" here is that JRB-WG only has ONE runway now, but that hardly precludes the possibility that one could be added. 4) We do not trust that governmental agencies would NEVER consider JRB-WG as a possible solution to overcrowding at PHL. All one has to do is to look at the expansion going on at PHL now to see that anything is possible when government gets "bright ideas". Although I would agree that comparisons to PHL are loaded with some very dark, remote possibilities, but the runway length at JRB-WG puts the base on a different level than PNE, in my opinion. That runway will NEVER go away. It would be cost-prohibitive to remove or shorten any part of it. You cannot land a 737 at PNE. You could do that today at JRB-WG. Amy:
I too lived in close proximity to PNE from 1966-97, in fact very close to the flight paths on BOTH ends in two separate houses. For certain there were a few accidents, but I tend to discount that threat when I consider the Willow Grove site.

My objections are based on:
1) I watched PNE grow from a very sleepy private plane operation to a much more bustling level of activity. So obviously few airports in urban areas ever remain at the same level of activity from whence they start.
2) The financial benefits so many on the airport side like to promote WILL NOT result from the same kind of sleepy, general aviation operation they foresee. Only from a much larger commercial operation will any direct significant economic activity result. Corporate/industrial development, which they also laud as an indirect economic benefit, will indubitably demand more than a “limited” aviation operation.
3) The runway at JRB-WG is over 8000 ft long. In that regard, the base can already accomodate much larger, heavier, and noisier aircraft today than PNE ever did. Perhaps the “out” here is that JRB-WG only has ONE runway now, but that hardly precludes the possibility that one could be added.
4) We do not trust that governmental agencies would NEVER consider JRB-WG as a possible solution to overcrowding at PHL. All one has to do is to look at the expansion going on at PHL now to see that anything is possible when government gets “bright ideas”.

Although I would agree that comparisons to PHL are loaded with some very dark, remote possibilities, but the runway length at JRB-WG puts the base on a different level than PNE, in my opinion. That runway will NEVER go away. It would be cost-prohibitive to remove or shorten any part of it. You cannot land a 737 at PNE. You could do that today at JRB-WG.

]]> Comment on Solar Power at the base no airplains by Amy http://reusethebase.com/?p=89#comment-512 Amy Mon, 25 Jul 2011 18:42:17 +0000 http://reusethebase.com/?p=89#comment-512 I've read through this full thread and I wanted to add a few observations. I'll start off by saying I'm not a resident of Horsham, since that will quickly be pointed out. I am however a resident of Montgomery county and a frequent patron of Horsham based businesses. So while I'm not directly impacted by the fate of Willow Grove Navel Air Station I do have a valid interest. It seems far fetched at best to think that Willow Grove will EVER evolve into something akin to Philadelphia International Airport. Northeast Philadelphia Airport is a more apt comparison of air traffic and environmental impact. Willow Grove is smaller the PNE by 350 acres and has 1 fewer runway. (1@ WG and 2@ PNE). I grew up in the flight path of PNE...in the crash zone. Never once in the 25 years did the thought of a crash bother me. We were more concerned with pollution from the industrial parks and Nabisco than we were from the aircraft at PNE. The noise was negligible. My parents have lived in the area for more than half their lives and have never complained about anything going on at PNE. The most excitement PNE ever caused was when the blimp would be docked there. Much of the health and environmental impact studies mentioned in the posts above deal with major airports like O'Hare, LAX and JFK. I don't deny that sustained air traffic would cause more pollution and noise than the Naval Air Station produced, but to cite studies of major metropolitan international airports as examples of what would happen at Willow Grove is a bit disingenuous. And if PNE and Trenton don't experience sustained and scheduled traffic, what indicators are there that heavier demand would be experienced at Willow Grove? Just some observations from a neighbor who experienced living near a a small regional airport first hand. I’ve read through this full thread and I wanted to add a few observations.

I’ll start off by saying I’m not a resident of Horsham, since that will quickly be pointed out. I am however a resident of Montgomery county and a frequent patron of Horsham based businesses. So while I’m not directly impacted by the fate of Willow Grove Navel Air Station I do have a valid interest.

It seems far fetched at best to think that Willow Grove will EVER evolve into something akin to Philadelphia International Airport. Northeast Philadelphia Airport is a more apt comparison of air traffic and environmental impact. Willow Grove is smaller the PNE by 350 acres and has 1 fewer runway. (1@ WG and 2@ PNE).

I grew up in the flight path of PNE…in the crash zone. Never once in the 25 years did the thought of a crash bother me. We were more concerned with pollution from the industrial parks and Nabisco than we were from the aircraft at PNE. The noise was negligible. My parents have lived in the area for more than half their lives and have never complained about anything going on at PNE. The most excitement PNE ever caused was when the blimp would be docked there.

Much of the health and environmental impact studies mentioned in the posts above deal with major airports like O’Hare, LAX and JFK. I don’t deny that sustained air traffic would cause more pollution and noise than the Naval Air Station produced, but to cite studies of major metropolitan international airports as examples of what would happen at Willow Grove is a bit disingenuous. And if PNE and Trenton don’t experience sustained and scheduled traffic, what indicators are there that heavier demand would be experienced at Willow Grove?

Just some observations from a neighbor who experienced living near a a small regional airport first hand.

]]> Comment on About Reuse the Base by Carolyn Steiert http://reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-508 Carolyn Steiert Sun, 24 Jul 2011 23:58:54 +0000 http://www.babyloncampus.com/www.reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-508 Thanks Mike. It is what I thought all though you and I feel the same about an airport. I was just wonder what the pro people are expecting. I didn't realize airport pay nothing and all the tax burden would come down to the residents. Thanks Mike. It is what I thought all though you and I feel the same about an airport. I was just wonder what the pro people are expecting. I didn’t realize airport pay nothing and all the tax burden would come down to the residents.

]]> Comment on About Reuse the Base by Hatboro Mike http://reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-505 Hatboro Mike Sun, 24 Jul 2011 15:12:27 +0000 http://www.babyloncampus.com/www.reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-505 You're dreaming, Carolyn. An airport would be considered tax-exempt and - to my knowledge - not generate a single cent in direct taxes from airport operations. All the promises they make about "tax revenues" are based on the fuzzy potential for increased corporate/industry activity that they claim is "naturally attracted to an airport". But that would have to invested in (more money going OUT) and developed over years and years of effort. Even the potential for income taxes from those working at the airport would be minimal, unless we end up with a huge commercial operation there employing hundreds. And who wants THAT?!? You’re dreaming, Carolyn. An airport would be considered tax-exempt and – to my knowledge – not generate a single cent in direct taxes from airport operations. All the promises they make about “tax revenues” are based on the fuzzy potential for increased corporate/industry activity that they claim is “naturally attracted to an airport”. But that would have to invested in (more money going OUT) and developed over years and years of effort. Even the potential for income taxes from those working at the airport would be minimal, unless we end up with a huge commercial operation there employing hundreds. And who wants THAT?!?

]]> Comment on About Reuse the Base by Carolyn Steiert http://reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-504 Carolyn Steiert Sun, 24 Jul 2011 12:33:12 +0000 http://www.babyloncampus.com/www.reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-504 I know I am naive but to Joe or the residents who want an airport what do you expect to get out of an airport? I can tell you what I expect on the con side: health deterioration due to more air and water pollution, higher taxes to pay for the upkeep of an airport and/or security , more air traffic, smuggling, crime, noise 24/7, and at the very worst an airplane on my roof. Also there is the notoriety if a terrorist group learns to fly here or launch an attack from here since small airports boast of their easy security. The rural quietness of Horsham is fast disappearing and an airport will turn us into a slum. If we are unfortunate enough to get an airport, I want our taxes to go down to the 1940’s mill rate or to pay no more than $1000 or less a year for combined taxes. I want our perks to go up such as sound proofing our houses, sound barriers at the airport and at the very least air purifiers for the house. All services for the residence, the schools and teachers to be paid by the taxes collect from the airport and businesses of Horsham to pay for us residents and our needs. If that is unrealistic then the commissions who want an airport for Montgomery County will have the rest of Montgomery County pay for us. The airport would be a money pit funded by the upper poor for the rich people’s convenience and that is why Bucks County residents do not want to expand the airport they have. I know I am naive but to Joe or the residents who want an airport what do you expect to get out of an airport?
I can tell you what I expect on the con side: health deterioration due to more air and water pollution, higher taxes to pay for the upkeep of an airport and/or security , more air traffic, smuggling, crime, noise 24/7, and at the very worst an airplane on my roof. Also there is the notoriety if a terrorist group learns to fly here or launch an attack from here since small airports boast of their easy security. The rural quietness of Horsham is fast disappearing and an airport will turn us into a slum.
If we are unfortunate enough to get an airport, I want our taxes to go down to the 1940’s mill rate or to pay no more than $1000 or less a year for combined taxes. I want our perks to go up such as sound proofing our houses, sound barriers at the airport and at the very least air purifiers for the house. All services for the residence, the schools and teachers to be paid by the taxes collect from the airport and businesses of Horsham to pay for us residents and our needs. If that is unrealistic then the commissions who want an airport for Montgomery County will have the rest of Montgomery County pay for us. The airport would be a money pit funded by the upper poor for the rich people’s convenience and that is why Bucks County residents do not want to expand the airport they have.

]]> Comment on About Reuse the Base by Carolyn Steiert http://reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-498 Carolyn Steiert Fri, 22 Jul 2011 01:40:33 +0000 http://www.babyloncampus.com/www.reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-498 I agree with Bob our air is so much better and you can hear nature. I also agree with Mike about the base history. It is not being hysterical or creating fear about the accidents at the base. In the July 21st Intelligencer there was an article about a helicopter that crashed behind a NJ school. The week of June 15th there were five plane crashes and on June 26 a glider crashed in Hilltown after it flew into a tree. Horsham has lots of trees and houses. When I was a kid I heard the sick whine of the engine as it crashed into the Bazaar and I walked to almost all the crash sites. I do not recommend it especially for kids. “Smaller aircraft - planes that carry a handful of people - crash much more often and often lead to serious injury and death. One engine planes, cargo planes, and propeller planes are involved in accidents each day. . . If calculated by distance, planes are 62 times safer than cars and trucks. However, if calculated by journey, planes are three times more dangerous than cars… Half of all plane accidents are caused by pilot error. Pilot error can either be based on a pilot making a mechanical mistake while flying or on a pilot making a poor decision based on weather conditions. (http://www.lewisandtompkins.com/library/plane-accident-statistics.cfm)” I agree with Bob our air is so much better and you can hear nature. I also agree with Mike about the base history. It is not being hysterical or creating fear about the accidents at the base. In the July 21st Intelligencer there was an article about a helicopter that crashed behind a NJ school. The week of June 15th there were five plane crashes and on June 26 a glider crashed in Hilltown after it flew into a tree. Horsham has lots of trees and houses. When I was a kid I heard the sick whine of the engine as it crashed into the Bazaar and I walked to almost all the crash sites. I do not recommend it especially for kids. “Smaller aircraft – planes that carry a handful of people – crash much more often and often lead to serious injury and death. One engine planes, cargo planes, and propeller planes are involved in accidents each day. . . If calculated by distance, planes are 62 times safer than cars and trucks. However, if calculated by journey, planes are three times more dangerous than cars… Half of all plane accidents are caused by pilot error. Pilot error can either be based on a pilot making a mechanical mistake while flying or on a pilot making a poor decision based on weather conditions. (http://www.lewisandtompkins.com/library/plane-accident-statistics.cfm)”

]]> Comment on About Reuse the Base by Gina http://reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-490 Gina Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:57:09 +0000 http://www.babyloncampus.com/www.reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-490 @Bob - Again you are very rude to start pointing fingers at people. And from your posts, you appear to be a bit outspoken in thinking the world as we know it is going to end because of the situation at the base. I can tell because you type in all caps. if you are so worried about your property values, sell your house now. You're not going to get what you may have 10 years ago today or 10 years from now for your house because the entire real estate market has crashed and is in the toilet. The economy is also bad. To say your home value will go down is actually laughable. It's down now and won't be any better with or without a base. @Bob – Again you are very rude to start pointing fingers at people. And from your posts, you appear to be a bit outspoken in thinking the world as we know it is going to end because of the situation at the base. I can tell because you type in all caps. if you are so worried about your property values, sell your house now. You’re not going to get what you may have 10 years ago today or 10 years from now for your house because the entire real estate market has crashed and is in the toilet. The economy is also bad. To say your home value will go down is actually laughable. It’s down now and won’t be any better with or without a base.

]]> Comment on About Reuse the Base by Gina http://reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-489 Gina Tue, 19 Jul 2011 18:51:58 +0000 http://www.babyloncampus.com/www.reusethebase.com/?page_id=2#comment-489 @Bob - Your response was pretty rude. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn't mean you attack them personally. And this forum is for opinions, brainstorming and sharing. Enough with the "are you a resident of Horsham only" BS. I wouldn't mind even hearing someone's opinion from a neighboring borderline township. they will be affected too in one way or another. @Bob – Your response was pretty rude. Just because someone has a different opinion doesn’t mean you attack them personally. And this forum is for opinions, brainstorming and sharing. Enough with the “are you a resident of Horsham only” BS. I wouldn’t mind even hearing someone’s opinion from a neighboring borderline township. they will be affected too in one way or another.

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